[RULE] Hi everybody

[DervishD]

    Hi James :)

 * James Miller <jamtat at mailsnare.net> dixit:
> >     The advantage is that I fully control my Linux box, and I can
> > optimize compilation to my likings. The cons are that I don't have a
> > package system, but this is not an issue for me, since I have my
> This would be a huge issue for me.

    Seeing what you say below, that's true! ;)

> Not to mention that, were I to be using such a Linux on the sort
> of hardware RULE aims to run best on, I would not have adequate system
> resources - or time - to build it.

    Of course...

> It's an interesting aside, but I don't see how it addresses RULE
> issues: can someone help me understand?

    I wasn't saying that the above addresses any RULE issue. I just
said that *for me* is better a non-package system ;)) I prefer that,
but obviously RULE users don't and don't need to have one: they can
have RULE.
 
> >     Since I don't use a distro, I've learned that the first source of
> > bloatware is userspace. Since I have my own init, my own mixer,
> > etc... my system runs faster and I have more spare memory for caching
> > and the like. If we manage to substitute bloated userspace programs,
> > we have won a lot: see kdrive, for example.
> Wonderful.  I have a 486 DX2 66 with 20MB RAM (30 pin simms) on which I'd
> like to install Linux.  What can you do for me?

    I can send you a RULE ;)) In fact, if you want to install a Linux
distro on an old machine and have an up-to-date system, the answer is
RULE. My Linux box is not suitable for you ;))
 
> >     My system, currently, fits in an 80min CD, complete, including
> > sources, software, documentation, etc... A complete image. That means
> > that, if I need to, I can run my box with just a 1Gb hard disk drive
> > (in fact, my 40Gb drive is occupied mostly by my mirror...), and I
> > think that it will run with 16-32 Mb of RAM.
> Very laudable.  What processor speed would be required?

    When I first threw away my Debian, I had a K6-200 with 128 MB RAM,
and it run smoothly, but I see your point ;)) Anyway, I'm not doing
advocacy for do-it-yourself boxes, nor saying that a DIY is better
than a RULE. I just wanted to make clear that bloatware is a bigger
problem for speed and performance that old hardware.

    I used POVRay in my old 486 running Linux without problems, but I
couldn't run 3DStudio, because I can't pay for the necessary
resources nor 3DS itself ;))) If we have a modest hardware, it
doesn't mean that we cannot do certain things.

>  Would it work on a 486?

    Maybe... recompiling all. 

>  Do you have such hardware there on which to test it?

    Right now, not at hand, sorry...

> > work with a desktop environment instead of my 5 virtual consoles, but
> > it's all about resources. With all that RAM and virtual consoles I
> > can run lots of GCC's, edit sources, play music while I do things
> I try to use virtual consoles on my 486's as much as possible and not fire
> up X apps.  GCC is sort of out of the question though, since I have
> limited disk space and even more limited system resources (say, on a 486
> DX4 100 [Cyrix] laptop I have).

    If you don't do any development and your apps come from a distro,
a GCC is a waste of space. 

> > My system, and three years old Duron, is fast as light.
> Mine does pretty good too - for a 486 with only 20Mb RAM.

    I'm sure. If you run RULE, I'm completely sure. Even if you use
Debian, for example, it will run smooth. I've used a Debian 3.0r1 in
a 486 with 64MB of RAM and even X run OK. Faster than Windows,
indeed.
 
> > But if I used KDE or GNOME, and Mozilla instead my good eLinks,
> > surely I will have a prettier system, no doubt, but then I no longer
> > could make an image to a 80min CD and my 512M RAM will be the minimum
> I don't have any CD burner in any of my 486's.  The less HD space the OS
> takes up the better, but the capacity of a CD is sort of irrelevant for
> me.

    But for me is important because I can make full backups that I
can use for installing my *full* system in a few minutes in case of a
hard disk crash. Last time I f****d up my hard disk, I got an spare
old 1GB disk, booted with a installation CD (don't remember if it was
a distro, or just a rescue CD), once booted I put my full-backup on
CD, and 10 minutes after all this I was working again.

    This can be done with usual backups, of course, but I can have
all my system in my pocket (except the mirror) and put it in any
machine if I want. That's why I want a small system without bloat.

> >     But I don't want to blame X of being bloat, this is not true.
> > What I mean is that, compiling all by hand and carefully choosing
> > what kind of software you *really* need for your everyday use, you
> > can have a fast system without the need of much CPU power and RAM.
> I compiled Naim once on my 486 DX2 66 with 20MB RAM.  I think the finished
> binary is somewhere around 600KB.  It took about 45 minutes or an hour, as
> I recall.  Anything much bigger would probably have taken the better part
> of a day.  I don't think I'll try much more compiling on that machine . .

    Rereading my paragraph, seems like I was trying to 'sell'
compile-all-by-yourself boxes. Wasn't my intention, sorry. In fact,
it sounds arrogant. The systems that RULE addresses are not suitable
for such an effort. I must confess that back in the days when I had a
486, I didn't even compile the kernel. Well, I did, but not
regularly. I didn't have the intention of offending people with
modest machines.

> > if I can choose, I choose the less bloated if possible. And I
> > consider carefully the limit between 'full-featured' and 'bloated'.
> > Things like 'mutt' are full-featured. Things like 'emacs' are
> > bloated. Just my opinion, of course ;))
> Let's imagine you're more of a computer user (like me) than a programmer:
> how do you differentiate between the full-featured and the bloated?

    It's very difficult. Some times you can see the bloat yourself:
if the binary for setting the volume of your soundcard is 500kB large
and depends on GTK, it's bloated. If your webbrowser starts paging
when loading www.google.com, it's bloated. But you're right: most of
the time I end up looking at the sources...

> Are there lists somewhere that distinguish programs accordingly? 
> Would be nice if there were, wouldn't it?

    The problem is that most of the time it's a matter of choice.
Some people cannot live without emacs but I think is bloat. I can't
live without GCC, but users who don't make any development obviously
think that's bloat'.

> >     And please excuse this long message, but I wanted to make clear
> > what you can accomplish just by carefully choosing userspace and
> > avoiding userspace bloat. Doing this you almost don't feel bloat in
> > the kernel ;))
> What does "userspace" mean?

    Programs that run on user space. Outside the kernel.
 
> You're fortunate in having adequate system resources (and adequate
> knowledge about how to tweak them) to compile your own kernel.  Now
> - back to my old 486's!

    Use RULE, no doubt!
 
> PS Your English is great, btw.

    Thanks, but sometimes is very difficult to express what I really
mean. See this message: I didn't mean 'hey man, compile all by
yourself with your GB RAM, lotta disk space and that big CPU, be
cool'. What I really meant was 'try to eliminate the bloat in user
space and you will able to do anything, no matter how old your
system'. It didn't look like that, but I was encouraging people to
use RULE O:)))

> I speak Russian

    Nice :)) Seems difficult, specially talking, for an English
speaker, am I wrong?

> I know how difficult it can be to communicate even simple
> things in a non-native language.

    As you can see, it is O:)) I hope that people on the list doesn't
thing that I'm a stupid, arrogant jerk O:))

> I wish my Russian were as good as your English.

    Thanks again. And thanks for your message :)

    Raúl Núñez de Arenas Coronado

-- 
Linux Registered User 88736
http://www.pleyades.net & http://raul.pleyades.net/


_______________________________________________
Original home page of the RULE project: www.rule-project.org
Original Rule Development Site http://savannah.gnu.org/projects/rule/
Original RULE mailing list: Rule-list at nongnu.org, hosted at http://mail.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/rule-list